The Wife with Boundaries: Changing the Conversation on Biblical Submission [Episode 184]

Hi. This is Natalie Hoffman of Flyingfreenow.com, and you’re listening to the Flying Free Podcast, a support resource for women of faith looking for hope and healing from hidden emotional and spiritual abuse.

NATALIE: Welcome to Episode 184 of the Flying Free Podcast! Today, we are going to be having a conversation with Chelsea Wells about the book, “Created to Be His Help Meet,” written by Debi Pearl. I know I did a podcast about this book a few years ago, way back when I first started this podcast, but I cannot figure out which episode is it. I think Rachel and I discussed it at length, and maybe Aimee or Sara can find it for us in time for when this gets published, and then they can put the link in the show notes.

But anyway, I want to talk about this book again, because so many of the women I work with have read this book as I did when I was in my abusive marriage, and I believe this book is doing copious amounts of damage in the lives of women. And I don’t think I’m exaggerating or that I’m being dramatic when I say that this book is wicked. That’s my personal opinion. I believe it’s wicked because it attributes abuse to God. And it tells women that they need to submit to their mental, physical, and emotional destruction in the name of obeying and glorifying God. So they’re tying God into this belief, which I believe is taking God’s name in vain. It is slandering the name of God.

So this is pretty serious in my opinion, and Chelsea, I think, is the perfect person to have this conversation with, because guess what? She wrote a book exposing many of the lies. And she basically takes the book, “Created the Be His Help Meet,” and then in her book, she goes through and asks really good questions. Let me introduce her, and then we’ll dig in. Hi. Welcome to the podcast, first of all.

CHELSEA: Hi! Thank you so much for having me on.

NATALIE: She’s wondering, “I wonder if she’s just going to talk the whole time!” No. This is just my intro. Anyway, Chelsea is the founder of Table Salt Ministries, which, I really want to hear about why you call it that. I just want to find out about that. But anyway, this ministry aims to expose common false teachings in the church and demystify what the Bible is really saying to women. I love that concept. It’s so needed today. Chelsea has three kids, and in her free time (I love this) she enjoys motorcycle riding with her husband. So I’m really impressed by that. That terrifies me. I’m wondering if it’s even Christian. Is it Christian to ride motorcycles?

CHELSEA: It’s one of the only things I do that’s adventurous.

NATALIE: So funny. I think that’s amazing. I bet your husband just loves that, that he can do that with you.

CHELSEA: Oh yeah, definitely.

NATALIE: I think that’s fabulous. So tell me, why do you call your ministry Table Salt Ministries? What’s the story behind that?

CHELSEA: So I just got a picture of sitting around the table and just really getting down to the root of what the Bible says — what it actually says, right? So we can come to these conclusions by having discussions because we have the Holy Spirit, right? We can enlighten one another on that. And then salt, you know, when Jesus talks about being salt and light and shining a light on His word and on the current culture and any teachings that you come across, just examining it and just letting your speech be seasoned with salt, because Jesus tells us that we are to be salt and light. And then even just thinking about the table being a symbol of homemaking, because I think that we get a lot of bad theology in homemaking circles especially. So I would really love to just be able to reform that and just have our speech be seasoned with salt about when it comes to being a wife and mother.

NATALIE: Yeah. We’ll put the full bio in the show notes, but one of the things you said is that you see yourself as a theologian. It’s not only okay, but I think it’s necessary not only to be homemakers but to also be theologians.

CHELSEA: Definitely.

NATALIE: We need to know what the Bible is actually saying so when we hear false teachings, we can go, “Oh, that doesn’t really line up with what the Bible’s actually saying.”

CHELSEA: Exactly, and God gave us discernment to be able to look at His word and say, “This is what it’s saying and this is what it’s not saying.” It’s so easy to be deceived by these teachers — and we’ll get into this a little bit more — who have this veneer of godliness, and we’re like, “Oh, that sounds really good.” And I think sometimes it gives people a sense of like, “I’m really righteous if I do this,” when really it’s legalism, because they’re adding on to what God is saying and making Jesus’ yoke, which is supposed to be light, actually heavier. So that’s important to sort of demystify I guess: what is the Bible saying and what is it not saying.

NATALIE: Yes. And that’s what the Pharisees did. And Jesus had the hardest, harshest words for the Pharisees because they were laying heavy burdens on the people. Well, first of all, I just want to say first, my daughter, Aimee, she read your book and then she passed it on to me, and she said, “I really think you should look at this. This is really cool, and it’s a neat concept how she did it.” So I just want to tell the listeners, Chelsea’s book — which, we’ll put a link to it — it’s on Amazon. What she does is something that’s really unique. She’ll say the teaching that Debi is giving in her book, and it’s just shocking. I haven’t read that book for years and years, okay? I threw it away many, many years ago.

But when I read through… I read it several times, because I was trying so hard to do all of the things, and when I did all those things, it actually did make my marriage better, because I was placating and appeasing my husband and giving him his way. As long as you keep handing your toddler suckers and taking them to ValleyFair, then they’re good for the most part. I mean, they’ll have a meltdown here and there, but for the most part, it’s good. They’re happy as long as you keep them happy. The book “works,” but at your expense. We only have so many suckers to give out, and we can’t go to ValleyFair every day. Sometimes we have to stay home and do the chores. Sometimes we have to have a baby and nurse the baby and be up all night, and sometimes we just can’t be as perfect as this book requires us to be.

So anyway, you put the statement that she makes in her book, and then you ask really good questions about it. You’re not just telling us what to think — you’re asking us to think through it ourselves, to use our common sense, to use our own wisdom that God gave to us because the Holy Spirit lives inside of us, and to ask ourselves these questions. You’re almost asking us, “I want you to write your own rebuttal to this in your own head,” which I think is brilliant, and it also creates this shift in our brains of… Because it’s one thing to hear someone else say something — it’s another thing to answer it inside of ourselves. It makes a much more profound, longer-lasting impact on us, I think. Why don’t you give a summary of “Created to Be His Help Meet” and what it’s about and why it’s dangerous?

CHELSEA: So Debi Pearl, her theology is mainly that your husband is your priest, and that if you are obeying him, you’re obeying God. And there’s just tons and tons of problems with this book. But one of them is that she holds men and women to different moral standards. Also, it sort of normalizes this coercive control that an abusive husband can have, and it excuses it. So she paints situations like adultery and physical abuse as normal marriage situations that can be changed if you are just sweeter, right? And it gives women this never-ending to-do list, so you get on this treadmill of just doing and doing and doing, when in reality, that’s not what God calls us to do. So she essentially blames women for their husband’s bad behavior. So the husbands in her view have rights, but the wives honestly don’t have a lot of rights in their marriage.

So some of her advice, just a few off the top of my head, are like that women shouldn’t have close friendships with other women. They should only be close to their husbands. There was one wife who, her husband was a porn addict, and she said that she knew she had to give him sex two to three times a week even though it was a terrible chore. And I’m thinking, “Where did she get this? Where is that in the Bible?” And then to a woman who says that she needs four hours a week of time alone with God, she says, “Oh, spend that desired spiritual time with your husband and let him teach you.”

And even her husband Michael wrote a chapter. He’s the leader, and so I’ve got this quote right here. He says, “Know that a husband has the authority to tell a wife what to wear, where to go, whom to talk to, how to spend her time, when to speak and when not to, even if he is unreasonable or insensitive. God does not override a man’s authority when he uses it unjustly.” So my question for him is, in the book of Hosea, Hosea 2:16, God talks about Himself being a bridegroom. And He says, “In that day, you will call me ‘my husband’ instead of ‘my master.’” So He contrasts those two things. A husband is supposed to be loving. In 1 Peter 3:7 it says, “So your prayers won’t be hindered, you should treat your wife with gentleness.” And then in Colossians 3:19, that’s echoed where it says, “Don’t treat your wife harshly.”

NATALIE: Can I jump in here really quick and just say this? I know some Christian men would say, “Well, men should be able to do all those things, control their wife in those ways, but just do it gently.” You know what I’m saying? They would say, “Oh yeah — we totally agree with that. It needs to be kind and benevolent control and power over the women.” I just want to make it very clear to people who are listening that power and control of any kind is abuse, okay? And marriage was meant to be a partnership.

If you turn the tables, you can see it more clearly. We’re so used to believing that women should be controlled in that way, but if you turn the tables and said that the woman should be the one to tell the husband what to wear, where to go, what to do, to never go see anybody else, to never spend time with God but only to spend time with the wife, now we see, “Oh my word.” We would go, “Well, that woman would be a shrew. She would be a rebellious, crazy person.” And yes, you’re right: she would be. But so is the man when he does that to the woman. That is 100% abuse.

And I wanted to even point out too when you said that she said that this wife should only spend time with her husband and not spend time with other people, that is a classic abuser move to isolate the victim. So she’s basically written a handbook of how… First of all, because men love this book, how men should do it, how to be very effective in your abuse, and then telling women why they should submit to abuse, why they should be an abuse victim — why it is a good thing and a godly thing and a praise-worthy thing to be an abuse victim. That’s what this book is. It’s absolutely terrifying. Alright, I’m sorry — I interrupted. I’m just jumping out of my skin right now.

CHELSEA: Oh, no problem! There was another part where she says that… There’s a woman whose husband didn’t want her to go to church, and she said, “Oh, well, just spend that time with him.” I’m like, “Wow.” So she really discourages even any type of boundary-setting or even going to one’s pastor (not that they’re always the most helpful when it comes to these situations). She says, “You shouldn’t tell anybody,” you know.

And another way that she excuses abusive behavior is that she treats it like, “Oh, it’s a personality type.” So she has the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as these different personality types for men, which, I’m not even going to get into why we can’t emulate the Father or the Holy Spirit. We can only emulate the Son, because He’s God in human form. So the Father she characterizes as this dominating personality that gets angry and flies off the handle, and, “Oh, that’s okay, because that’s just a personality type, and he’s like a father,” when really, the Father is actually loving. He doesn’t fly off the handle. With the Holy Spirit, she talks about, “These are the type of men who are flighty and can’t hold down a job” and all these things. But I’m thinking, “But the Holy Spirit is not flighty or wishy-washy. He’s direct and consistent.” And so, I mean, God is perfect. We can’t excuse different…

NATALIE: …sinful behaviors and attribute them to God. That’s wacko.

CHELSEA: Exactly. One more thing just about the Son and about imitating Jesus. So you know, of course lots of marriage books talk about the husband being the leader, right? But really, a leader in the Bible is a servant, because Jesus came as a servant and He washed His disciples’ feet, and that is really… Whoever’s serving the most is actually the leader by Biblical definition.

NATALIE: Yes. I’ve heard this whole idea of “servant leadership.” You’re leading by being an example of a servant. That is how you’re leading. You’re leading the way — you’re the “most servant” of servants. That’s what it means. Okay, so why did you decide to actually take time out of your life and put pen to paper and write a rebuttal?

CHELSEA: So I actually got really passionate about this subject because I was given this book by a well-meaning friend when I had a betrayal situation in my marriage and I told her about it. And I’d seen others talk about this book before, but I didn’t realize how actually harmful the teachings were. So I was thinking, “I’ll just read it with an open mind.” And I was just shocked and appalled at what I was reading, because I was thinking, when I’ve done these things in my marriage, for me, it’s really made it worse, because it’s kind of continuing to just be the magical fairy, the maid, and the person who’s just not noticed — that was actually causing more trauma to me. So I was really taken aback by how she placed the blame solely on the wife for the marriage problems. Or, not marriage problems, but really the husband’s bad behavior. So she just has this whole theology of “win him without a word.”

And I’m thinking, “Okay, the only time that anything’s ever changed in my marriage is when I actually set a boundary.” And I did set a boundary, and my husband, I’m proud to say, is one of the few men who’s actually putting in the effort to change, so things are a lot better now because I went against what this book says and actually did the opposite. And we’re just closer than ever, and my marriage is healing now. I was actually really disturbed that so many women in my situation are reading this book thinking that this is good advice and that this is what they need to do. It was terrible to think about that. And it’s a very popular book in my church, and I just really wanted the women who were reading it in my church especially just to see the truth about these teachings. I’m a former teacher — I love discussion and things, and I love to ask people thought-provoking questions, so I thought that that would be the best medium to kind of rebut this book, I guess.

NATALIE: I love it. So give us some examples in your book of the things that she would teach and then what you would say to that.

CHELSEA: Yeah. So she teaches a lot about submission, right? That’s what we’re supposed to do as wives according to Debi Pearl — is just submit. So I first wanted to talk about what submission isn’t. So she says women should obey their husbands. But, actually, nowhere in scripture are women told to obey their husbands like children are told to obey their parents. And I’ll get into what the word “submit” actually means in a few minutes. It’s actually an empowering position instead of a lower position. And also, biblical submission does not mean enabling. So Debi talks about a situation where a husband was cheating on his wife, but in order to just encourage him, she and her son went to his work and decided to cheer him on and hold a sign that said “Number One Dad.” And I’m thinking, “Wow, so no setting boundaries?” And the example this woman’s son is getting from the husband is just shocking.

NATALIE: Seriously.

CHELSEA: So another woman whose husband was a habitual porn user, she cooked him this amazing meal and had his work friends over and stuff, and then everything was apparently great after that, which is just an unrealistic scenario. So there was, again, no setting boundaries or insisting that he get help. And then another woman was told to just not speak up or say anything when her husband was going to make an unwise purchase, and that’s not submission either, right? So Proverbs 24:26 says that, “An honest answer is like a kiss of friendship.” So I think that in order to really even just have basic respect for our husbands, we have to be honest with them.

NATALIE: Yeah.

CHELSEA: So she puts the pressure on women to make their husband and family look good even if he’s terrible. She’s very much about image, which I thought was confusing, because I was thinking, “What about that verse, ‘Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart,’” you know? It just really contradicts the Bible in that way. So Debi says, “A good woman might be married to a man who’s lazy or does not make much money, and as a result, he appears wiser and wealthier than he really is and is looked upon with honor because of it. A good woman may be married to a man who is not an attentive father or patient child-trainer. When people see their children, they assume the father must be a good man to have such fine children. A good woman could be married to a man who’s a poor example of a father and a husband. People look at their relationship and think, ‘He must be a good man, because they seem to be happy together.’” And this is an example of a wife shielding her husband from the consequences of his bad behavior.

NATALIE: Oh my gosh.

CHELSEA: And then, like you said about the Pharisees earlier, it reminds me of that verse in Matthew 23:20 when He calls them whitewashed tombs. So I’m thinking, “Is a marriage that’s a whitewashed tomb really glorifying to God?” Of course not.

NATALIE: Yes, yes. Also, that teaching gives women a pause and think twice before they would ever go get help, because if they go get help, they’re being a bad wife. They’re exposing their husband. You can’t get any help for yourself.

CHELSEA: Yeah, exactly. And so actually, in biblical terms, the word “submit” is “hupotasso,” which refers to two people who are equal in God’s eyes. And it’s also to be mutual in marriage, right? So it’s an attitude that every believer should have towards one another. And my working definition of “submit” is to respect and support now, because it’s actually a military term meaning to sort of arrange oneself into a battle formation to help effectively fight the enemy. So respecting and supporting your husband while obeying God alone, with a caveat, because this respect and support is going to look different depending on what your husband is doing, of course.

So I respected my husband enough to tell him that what he was doing was not okay and that it was very destructive to me and to God’s temple, really. So for me, yeah, while he was engaging in his behaviors, submission looked like setting boundaries, speaking the truth in love, putting together a safety plan for me and the kids if I had to leave, which ultimately helped lead him to repentance. But whether or not they repent, God desires that His children are safe. So pretending everything is okay is not biblical submission.

NATALIE: Right. I 100% agree. Do you have any other examples?

CHELSEA: I think that’s all.

NATALIE: Okay! You talked about the idea of… I might be saying this wrong, but an ezer kenegdo? Did I say that right?

CHELSEA: Yeah — ezer kenegdo? I don’t know.

NATALIE: Yeah, the original Hebrew phrase for “help meet,” which, her book is called “Created to Be His Help Meet,” so I think we probably need to talk about what that actually means. Can you explain how the definition of that phrase is different from Debi Pearl’s definition?

CHELSEA: Yeah, so in Debi Pearl’s definition, a help meet is… It’s very superficial, right? It’s a superficial definition of being a “helper.” So a helper in her view is someone who basically just never puts down the broom. Always either cooking, cleaning, doing something like taking care of the kids, she lets her husband come stretch out after his eight hour work day and just keeps doing and doing and doing. So a help meet is about “doing” in Debi’s definition, but really, an ezer kenegdo is more than the sum of what they do. It’s actually a spiritual warrior. So ezer is a helper, but not the kind of helper that we often think of when we think of that word. And ezer describes a swift, saving kind of help that God offers to us, and it’s used in verses like Psalm 121:1 where it says, “I look to the mountains. Where does my help come from? My help comes from the Lord who made heaven and earth.” So it made me think that this kind of help is actually a lot more than just the superficial. It’s being a spiritual advocate or a warrior for your family.

And then kenegdo is corresponding to him. And so corresponding meaning that not one person is higher or lower than the other one, right? It’s kind of like comparing the right hand to the left. Not one hand is better. They’re equal and each has a different function, and both are necessary if you’re going to be able to easily complete your daily tasks, right? I just want to say, if you are an ezer kenegdo, you are so much more than a maid, a nanny, a chef, or a concubine. It’s a lot more than that. You’re valued by God because you are that spiritual warrior for your family.

NATALIE: Yes. I want to just jump in here too and say that, you know, a lot of this stuff is in reaction to feminism, and there are people out there that think that us Christian women, if we get any notions in our minds of not submitting, that we’re all of sudden going to become these flaming, bra-burning feminists. That is not true. Both you and I, we are in our home raising children, feeding our families, earning livings, loving our husbands (I’m remarried), and doing all the things that fall into some of those traditional ideas — not that you have to, though.

None of us are out there saying, “Liberate women. Get those women out of their homes. Get them away from their children. Get them rebelling against their husbands.” We’re not saying that. We’re trying to communicate that God’s vision for marriage is so much more than this destructive, mind-numbing, soul-destroying idea that men have to be in control over women in order for it all to work well.

I just want to say that I am remarried to a healthy man, and we are partners. I’ve told him some of the things that I used to believe, and he’s totally shocked. He’s mind-blown, because he wasn’t raised in this kind of thinking, and so the concept is so foreign to him, and the idea that he could even gently control me or whatever, he’s like, “Why would I want to do that? You’re an amazing person; you have amazing ideas. I want to know your ideas; I want you to make your decisions and live your life, and I’m here to support you.” And then I as a wife am there to support him. We support each other. It’s a partnership. It’s a beautiful thing. So like you said, mutual submission — that’s what it is. Mutual submission is just getting under each other and saying, “How can I make you successful?” “How can I make you successful?”

CHELSEA: It works so much better that way, definitely. And it doesn’t have to be this adversarial thing.

NATALIE: No!

CHELSEA: A redeemed marriage is one where both are humble. And so Debi talks about how the husband should be the one to make the final decision, or the “tiebreaker.” He should be the one who gets the final say. But how much better would it be if both people said, “No. We’ll go with what you want,” right?

NATALIE: Right. Exactly.

CHELSEA: That’s so much more Christ-like and ideal for marriage.

NATALIE: Exactly. And that does work. I mean, I know some people think, “Oh, that’s impossible.” No, it’s not impossible if you have two committed people who are committed to each other and to Jesus. They have to both be, okay? That is not impossible. It is not only possible, it is probable that you’ll be able to do that. I don’t even know of a time that my current husband and I have butted heads where there had to be a tiebreaker. We’ve talked things through until we make a mutual decision on everything. Literally.

CHELSEA: Yeah, definitely. And you’re both led by the Spirit, so it makes things a lot easier.

NATALIE: Yeah. It’s a beautiful thing. So according to the book, how does Debi Pearl see some of her fellow image-bearers? You’re talking about women there, right? How does she see women? Or how does she see women and men?

CHELSEA: Oh yeah. This one’s a doozy. She says so many disparaging things about different types of women. She really goes hard against single moms, and I’m thinking, “I wonder what ax she has to grind against these women who are often victims in situations.” So she talks about, “Oh, they have ugly haircuts and ragged clothes and unruly kids and are stressed out all the time.” And I’m thinking, “What a weird stereotype.” I mean, I have several friends who are single moms, and they’re not like that. But even just thinking about part of my story, just the prospect of, “What if I have to be a single mom, and does God still have a future for me?” I think that could be really discouraging to a lot of women if they read that and are like, “Well, I don’t want that life, so I’m just going to follow this advice,” you know?

NATALIE: “Not only do I not want that life, but I don’t want people that I respect” (if they respect her, which, hopefully nobody does anymore) “to look at me and go, ‘Oh, she’s just an ugly, old, wretched person with a bad haircut.’” Really? Is that how we talk to each other? I mean, really?

CHELSEA: It’s really superficial too. Again, who knows what’s in their heart, you know?

NATALIE: Right. It’s very judgy. There’s something going on in her that… she needs some help, I think.

CHELSEA: For sure, yeah. And you know, I really had to cast myself on the mercy of God thinking that could be my future, and just realizing that He would still be good to me, and my life doesn’t have to be in shambles, necessarily, because He has a future and a hope for me.

NATALIE: Right.

CHELSEA: But anyway, some other ways that she talks about women are, of course, talking about their looks. And it honestly reminds me of how the enemy would speak about… Like, “Hey, you look really ugly in those too-tight pants” or whatever.

NATALIE: Yes, exactly!

CHELSEA: Several times I was reading the book, I was like, “This sounds like the devil.”

NATALIE: Yes, well, like I said at the beginning, I believe it’s a wicked book. I believe that it really is a satanic tool. I really do.

CHELSEA: Exactly. And just the gaslighting and making you question yourself. But she described one woman as like, “Hillbilly ugly, which is worse than regular ugly,” and she tells her readers to “Let the snake deceive some other dumb lady.” So she talks about women like they’re stupid, and I’m thinking, “You’re thinking that this is going to be an inspiring book to women, but then every other page you’re calling them dumb.” And she talks about the… There’s a quiz that said, “Are you a dumb cluck?” There were all these random questions on it, and none of them really had to do with any biblical concepts or anything. It was just superficial, like, “Do you have knowledge on this or that?” And it was really crazy.

NATALIE: Unreal. So did you have… It says here that you have a list of verses at the end of your study guide which tells how God sees… So to contrast how Debi sees wives and mothers, how does God? And this is where I just want to point out if that’s Debi’s view of wives and mothers, then her view is not in alignment with the heart of God. And you don’t need to give anything that someone like that says any credibility. They’re not aligned with God. So tell us, how does God see wives and mothers?

CHELSEA: Yeah. So this is so important. I just looked in the scriptures and just found all these different verses, and it was really amazing to me and humbling, honestly, because I was like, “Wow, God. You really see me like that.” So 1 Samuel 16:7 says, “Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.” So He’s looking and seeing into your heart. “You’re more precious than rubies,” Proverbs 31:10. “You should be given the reward that you’ve earned,” Proverbs 31:1 — in contrast to just slaving away all the time and just never having a break or any recognition. “Your husband has found a good thing and found favor with God if you’re a godly wife,” Proverbs 18:22. And then, “Your husband should treat you well so that his prayers will not be hindered,” 1 Peter 3:7. “You’re the crown of your husband,” Proverbs 12:4. “You are worthy of your husband’s faithfulness,” Hebrews 13:4. That’s an important one. Because yes, we do have rights as wives, and we have a right to be treated with faithfulness and to be loved. “You are a gift from God,” Proverbs 19:4. And then, “You should not be treated harshly,” Colossians 3;19. And then in Proverbs 5:19, it talks about the wife of one’s youth, and it says that “You are a loving doe of graceful deer, and your husband should be intoxicated with your love.”

So the way God sees women is not that your value comes from your works. Your value actually comes from your gentle and quiet spirit like it says in 1 Peter. And you are precious to God. He’s not like, “Oh, well, I just made you to be your husband’s sidekick and just tolerate his bad behavior and stand off to the side while he does whatever he wants,” right? He made you to be an encourager, to boldly speak His word, and your beauty comes from within.

NATALIE: And to that point, I want to say that I noticed in all of those verses, there was nothing about haircuts or physical, outward appearance or body weight or anything like that.

CHELSEA: Right.

NATALIE: Because God looks at every single one of you that are listening and you and I, Chelsea, and all He sees is a beautiful, amazing creation.

CHELSEA: Amen.

NATALIE: Whether we just rolled out of bed, just had a baby, just got out of the shower — it doesn’t matter. No matter what our weight is, no matter what our eyes look like or our mouth looks like or our hair looks like. That’s how God sees us.

CHELSEA: Exactly. And I just think of when I became a mother like how I saw my children. And that was so humbling to realize that God actually sees me the same way. He’s not standing there from His throne looking down His nose at me and waiting for me to trip and fall. He’s actually cheering me on. And just proud of every bit of sanctification that happens in my life and heart. And He sees me as His beloved child because I’m in Christ.

NATALIE: Amen. So if you want to get Chelsea’s book, it’s called “Created to Be His Help Meet Rebuttal,” right?

CHELSEA: Yes.

NATALIE: “Created to Be His Help Meet Rebuttal,” which is kind of brilliant, because people who are looking for that book then will hopefully find yours too. It’s on Amazon. We’ll put the link in the show notes. And then where else can they find you if they wanted to just get to know you a little bit or follow you or see what you’re doing — snoop on you?

CHELSEA: My Facebook page is Table Salt ministries. And it’s actually facebook.com/tablesaltministry.

NATALIE: Alright. We’ll put that in the show notes as well.

CHELSEA: Okay!

NATALIE: Thank you so much for being willing to come on here and share the things that you’ve studied about this book.

CHELSEA: Thank you so much.

NATALIE: Thanks for doing that work, too.

CHELSEA: You’re welcome.

NATALIE: I’ll probably be dead before this happens, but I would love to see the day where that book is no longer in print and can’t be circulating.

CHELSEA: Oh yes — that’s my prayer as well.

NATALIE: Yeah. Alright.

CHELSEA: Alright — thank you!

NATALIE: Yeah — thank you! To those of you who are listening, thank you so much for listening. And until next time, fly free.

CHELSEA: Bye!